Tags
Anthy, art, ecchi, fan service, Fanservice, Ghost in the Shell, Himari, Holo, Kanba, Mawaru Penguindrum, Motoko Kusanagi, nudity, Queen's Blade, Revolutionary Girl Utena, Senjougahara, Spice and Wolf, Utena
Revolutionary Girl Utena – Gender dynamics meet Yuri
Aelysium brought up an interesting discussion about the blatant use of ecchi in anime. I’m really pleased to have this small chat with him.
Aelysium: This post idea came to me after watching Philosotaku’s video titled a defense of ecchi. Whilst for a lot of people ecchi is definitely an end unto itself, for a great deal of others it is often a hindrance; a cliche that many would argue is ruining anime. I don’t particularly care for ecchi myself and often will be put off by any show that tries to cover up plot and character holes using well-endowed harems, however, I have to wonder if there really isn’t any subtle use for the genre. Is it simply pandering to an already subdued market or is there, beneath the prima facie titillation, something that can actually inspire depth in ecchi? I would argue the latter. Whilst ecchi is certainly not the pioneer of great philosophy, it isn’t the completely barren land of bustling valleys and gratuitous panty shots one might believe.
SnippetTee: I think that the discussion of anime and ecchi boils down to society’s perception of visual culture and the anime’s supposed targeted audience. We tend to link cartoons as children shows wherein censorship and morality are highly observed. Plus when it comes to eroticism, people tend to reserve their feelings about it.
Anyway, I agree with Philosotaku. In addition, I think when we talk about ecchi it’s important to define it first because there are many words which surround its meaning, but I guess what specifically gives a distasteful connotation is the association of eroticism and sexual innuendoes. It’s unfortunate that these words are related to being dirty, just like how ecchi means dirty.
Also, I noticed that lots of times fan service and ecchi are being linked to hentai and pornography because all of these share a common theme which is nudity. However, what the audience is neglecting about the concept of undressed bodies is that these are forms of expressions. Let’s not forget that the most natural and finest medium that a human can only offer is his or her naked body. Hence, nudity is not just to titillate, it’s an art of expressing the human body.
Ghost in the Shell’s Motoko Kusanagi – The art of machines
Aelysium: Exactly, Snippet. The definition of ecchi hangs so loosely, that any meaningful discussion about it is simply reduced to whatever bias one carries for the genre. Whilst there are varying degrees of ecchi, the general consensus seems to take ecchi as the ostensible act of titillation. But is that really a wholly consistent way of looking at it?
As what you have said, the human body – whilst obviously used to titillate – is not without its own artistic capability. Is it tasteless ecchi in Ghost in the Shell when Motoko is shown nude? Was it put there just to excite the audience? I would argue no. In the world Motoko lives in, she is a genderless cyborg struggling to find her identity as a person where personal identities seem sparse and meaningless. Devoid of femininity yet having a seemingly perfect feminine body, traditional themes of femininity and post-modern gender neutrality clash. Her body isn’t to titillate, it’s just a triviality of the thematic setting. In a time where the boundaries of gender and sexuality are blurred by the conflagration of technology, the frankness of nudity is neither appealing nor titillating. Motoko and her partner certainly seem oblivious to it and I would argue, so was I. Sexuality (or lack of it in GiTS) is also a crucial part of expressing one’s honest feelings, thoughts and personality. I never took GiTS to be ecchi but it is conspicuously so. However, this so called ecchi was a much more effective method of exposition than wordy dialogue – fleshing out character and story depth in a natural, tasteful and inspired way.
Mawaru Penguindrum – Fashion, Ecchi and Style have never been closer.
SnippetTee: I really like when you said that ecchi is a much more effective method of exposition than wordy dialogue. The meaning of ecchi, at least for me, has evolved throughout the years, though I’m just purely referring to the anime culture.
I’m not going to deny that there are times that I was bored and put-off by the random exposure of panty shots and breasts. However as I get to watch more anime, I learned how to develop different kinds of appreciation. I think everyone would agree that the use of fan service in Queen’s Blade is completely different from the use of fan service in Revolutionary Girl Utena. I don’t really want to rule out the titillation effect since arousal is entirely subjective, rather I’d like to point out that ecchi is perceived differently depending on the presentation, context, and delivery.
Further, different people have different fetishes. Some see fan service as portrayal of sexual prowess and some see it as degradation especially when we talk about the female body. I also don’t really want to overgeneralise but I believe that how we see ecchi reflects us. Japan has a patriarchal society so I couldn’t help but to perceive that fan service is largely meant to fan serve the male market. But again, different people have different cultural views.
Queen’s Blade – Ecchi in ridiculous excess.
Aelysium: How could I forget Revolutionary Girl Utena? Great example of ecchi being used in a stylistic and meaningful way.
However, as you pointed out as well, it is there for titillation. I guess the issue isn’t that it is there for titillation as much as, the market has become so over saturated with these themes that they seem to pervade nearly any and every show. From the early beginnings of moé, to the more recent movement of lolicon to the even more modern explicit decadence of women, anime has hypersexualised the aesthetic of being female. It’s almost as if being female dictates being extremely provocative (sexually) in the medium.
Fan service is a household term not because it is a core part of anime, rather the focus of anime just seems to have shifted that way. Fans have been polarised in this regard and I guess I would be on the side of nay-sayers – not because I think ecchi is ruining anime, as I pointed out above it can be very poignant, just because for the most part it’s not necessary or is overused. Ecchi has slowly been normalized and could even be considered as a canon part of anime – whether that is a good thing though, I’m not so sure.
If what you said is true, if it really does reflect our society in some loosely broad sense, then where does that lead us? And where will it take us in the future?
Senjougahara Hitagi – Stationary has never known better company
SnippetTee: Future, hmm… I would like to believe that for the most part, normalisation leads to acceptance. How come naked ancient Greek sculptures are considered artistic but panty shots in Japanese cartoons are off-putting? How come one is seen as an art and the other as a porn if both are depicting bare bodies? I think that’s because consumerism is ever changing and so is the definition of lust. We have seen from time to time that the by-product of this negatively connoted human aspect has a potential to evolve into a wonderful aesthetic. Shows like Revolutionary Girl Utena, Bakemonogatari, and Redline are some anime that I had seen wherein the ecchi-ness was used as a substance to present and justify the context not just erotically but more so artistically.
But as what you have exemplified, Aelysium, I don’t want to rule out the grey side of ecchi—some things will always remain negative regardless of time. I’m not also sure if fan service as a canon part of anime is a good thing, but if it can enhance the viewing experience in a non-negative and creative way, then what’s the reason to detest it?
Horo – Everyone’s favourite medieval wolf spirit
Aelysium: Great point Snippet, why is it that nude paintings and erotic literature is considered okay, whilst ecchi is considered derogatory or primal? I guess it’s to do with the intended meaning. The former arts are considered to have meaning beyond titillation and to inspire thought. They are considered to enhance viewer experience beyond just the visual.
I guess that’s the crux of the debate, isn’t it Snippet? Does ecchi enhance viewing experience? Well, just from this discussion we can see that ecchi can not only allow us to flesh out mature and complex themes in a way that dialogue perhaps can’t but also, it can actually serve as a societal looking glass into the minds of the individual but also the collective fandom. As philosotaku argued it lets us ask ourselves why we find certain things titillating whilst others going too far. And for some people, it’s simply arousing goodness. I guess that’s what we’ve been looking at here really.
Does ecchi actually provide much beyond obvious titillation? 95% of the time, no. Do we like this much ecchi? I’m not so sure the answer to that is clear. However, as someone not overly fond of ecchi, I would say that even that 5% is worth the trouble. Finding a gem of a show in the otherwise murky depths is often much more satisfying than eliminating the element all together. Is it ruining anime? I wouldn’t say it’s ruining anime; anime preferences and tastes change with the fandom, if there is an excess of ecchi, it’s because the fandom has shifted that way – clearly the fans want more ecchi. Regardless of whether or not this is a good thing, I should still think ecchi has a rightful place in anime.
____________________________________________
About Aelysium (@aelysium)
Procrastinator by day, anime lover by night with music, art, games and old books filling in the betweens.
About SnippetTee (@snippettee)
Never really knew I’m a euphemist until my professor pointed out.
Lemmas and Submodalities 
Even the bible has ecchi in it, if it’s good enough for god, it’s good enough for me. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Song+of+Songs+1&version=NIV
Personally I don’t think that ecchi is the problem, it’s correlation not causation. It’s not that ecchi shows are shitty, it’s that shitty shows tend to include ecchi because they pander to the lowest common denominator. Even if ecchi were banned from TV there would be just as many awful shows, they just wouldn’t have ecchi.
There are many excellent ecchi shows though. Penguindrum and Utena of course, as you mentioned, although there ecchi is a relatively small component of the whole. Some of my favorites that have a bigger focus on ecchi itself are Isekai no Seikishi Monogatari, Ichiban Ushiro no Daimao, and Softenni, to name some recent ones.
Also I’m sure you guys realize this but fan service and ecchi are not synonymous. Fanservice doesn’t necessarily have a sexual connotation, one canonical example is Foucault’s Pendulum, which is chockfull of fanservice for Gnosticism and Kabbalah nerds.
Fan service is a very general term yes, that extends far outside of anime and predates anything anime related by quite a ways off, yes. In the post however, we were simply addressing the use of fan service in anime which is general considered to be of a lewd nature.
Yes, the bible among many other mediums such as poetry, music and novels all contain ecchi content which is hailed as a masterpiece, not as a dirty or unwanted thing. And I guess that is what I was defending, whilst I understand some people’s aggravation about ecchi, I can’t help but think it still needs to be a part of anime and it can definitely contribute when it wants to.
I’m not so sure that there would be as many bad shows without ecchi. Considering shows like School Days or To Love-Ru which nearly entirely thrive n ecchi and get their popularity from it, without ecchi, these shows would have near to nothing to present to us. I could list a lot of shows who’s primary fan base would revolve around ecchi, Ikki Tousen and Queen’s Blade to name a few, and again without the ecchi, there is nearly nothing there. For a lot of shows, to take away ecchi is to take away most fan interest and screen time. I would think TV would be a bit less crowded at least.
There are a number of shows which are very heavily themed with ecchi and do actually inspire depth however, in the post I was just looking at the shows which use ecchi in a relatively moderate amount however, get the most abuse. Its not the shows which are proudly ecchi that get abuse but the one’s that have ecchi tones despite having a narrative and characters on which to build upon instead.
Thanks for the comment!
it’s that shitty shows tend to include ecchi because they pander to the lowest common denominator
Indeed, that’s the thing why, right? Looking at a different angle, how come non-shitty shows are inclined not to include explicit content.
Example: ef -a tale of memories. The main characters (both pairs) end up having sex – we know they do without being shown. There was no need. The development of the relationship between the characters was the story, not the sex they had. Taking 5 minutes to show the act would take 5 minutes away from the time spent on showing how they got there and would progress the story not at all.
“why is it that nude paintings and erotic literature is considered okay, whilst ecchi is considered derogatory or primal”
1. there is a factor of mobility or staticness. Paintings and a bit less literature are static and what they portray doesn’t most of the times include excessiveness and has a sensual tone rather than a crude one ( exceptions would be erotica like Tropic of Capricorn which are really vulgar and seem like cheap porn filled with ugliness…). On the other hand, panty shots and jiggling breasts not only seem ridiculous but tasteless, too. They expose the clumsiness and ‘dirtyness’ of the everyday person. Panty shots in particular imply not just voyerism but also the animalistic act of sniffing. Hentai anime include the more scandalous acts of revealing and peeping. Static images just expose a body, not the process of its undressing.
2. and connected to the first there’s a major difference between styles. Ecchi is certainly not a label that can fit Utena and Gits. It’s like saying that a hamburger and a beef steak with vegetable garnish at a high-class restaurant are the same. Yes, they both are beef meat. But they are cooked and presented totally differently.
I can tolerate ecchi if it’s with measure and it’s not distracting me from the plot. Myself;yourself did have some ecchi but it was insignificant. On the other hand, most harems pass this thin line. Hentai aren’t usually watched for plot so I guess they are enjoyed just for this, but I still avoid the majority of them due to their ‘hamburger’ ways :P
1. There is certainly a lot of truth here and what you said about mobility does make a lot of sense.
2. For this I’m not so sure, again I think it would depend largely on how you define ecchi. For a lot of people its nudity where nudity doesn’t need to be or not even nudity, ecchi can simply be a character being promiscuous but in a rather vague sense. It varies so greatly from person to person and show to show, that its hard to argue for one type. Certainly I’d say the story of GITS doesn’t require Motoko to get naked, so for a lot of people its a bit of ecchi fan service. But I do understand your point, if not agree with it about how ecchi differs. Hence my ambivalence towards it.
Thanks for the insightful comment :)
On the other hand, panty shots and jiggling breasts not only seem ridiculous but tasteless, too. They expose the clumsiness and ‘dirtyness’ of the everyday person.
This kind of default perception is pretty much what I’m referring at when I mentioned Greek sculptures vs anime breasts. I don’t disagree but as I try to position myself as an outsider, it makes me question, why are you labelling panty shots and jiggling breast as ‘dirtyness’ of the everyday person. Bouncing breasts are just as real as non-moving breasts because the lack of A is just the excess of B, and vice versa. If you’ll notice visual culture is transitioning from static to interactive. Before people only have texts, painting, sculpture now we have plays, cinemas, and videos. So it’s not really because of the static and mobile factors why we perceive one as art and the other as derogatory, it’s more of the inherited perception that we acquired — another example is why do we sometimes feel that classic movies are more elegant than the recently released movies.
Ecchi is certainly not a label that can fit Utena and Gits.
I guess it’s because of your biased perception of the term why you’re refusing Utena and Gits to be labelled as ecchi. Say, Utena and Queen’s Blade both featured bare-nakedness the only thing that differs is the intent of the director but pretty much falls under the category of being ecchi.
Btw, it’s always such a pleasure how you make me think, Ayame. Thank you. ^^
One of the things I find often is never considered when talking about nudity/sex in what we watch is that our society seems willing to allow kids, and I mean young kids, to watch large amounts of incredibly violent shows or play games where the intent is to inflict incredible amounts of violence on others. We’re telling our kids it’s Okay scream hate and cut a person into three pieces with a chainsaw but don’t ever let us catch them looking at visuals showing loving couples in the act of making a family.
For my own part I don’t have much tolerance for shows that use sexually oriented fanservice as a end of itself, or to cover for what are otherwise just bad shows. On the other hand I’m quite fine with shows were it’s just an incidental part of the story. I may roll my eyes every time a show I’m otherwise enjoying has a beach or bathhouse episode, or when the guy accidentally walks in on the girl in the bath, but unless the point of the story seems to be to see how many times the main male character can grope the main female character, or how many different ways we can be given a view of the girls’ panties in each episode, I just don’t have a problem with it.
I’m also fairly relaxed when it comes to what my (11 year old) son sees. In general, as long as I don’t have the impression that the characters are being exploited, I’m fine with him watching it. A good example might be to compare, say, Haiyore! Nyaruko-san with Sankarea. In Haiyore there is a fair amount of skin and sexual overtones, and occasionally Kuko will come across strong in her advances towards Nyaruko, but the point of that show is situational comedy and the spectacle of an alien Thing (Nyaruko) taking on the form of a very cute young woman and trying to romance a (very reluctant) young man (Mahiro). Contrast this with Sankarea where there seems to be an attempt at romance but for all practical purposes most of the show so far seems to be mostly about how many ways we can see Ranko and Rea nude. I see nothing wrong with my son seeing Nyaruko try to jump Mahiro and tell him she wants to start a family with him, but I see no redeeming value in my son watching Rea struggle between eating Ranko’s tits or simply licking them.
That’s a very good point actually, we seemed to have moved away from a lot of conservative values in modern media however nudity is still one of those very difficult lines to trot. I think it’s still to do with now such things are viewed as incredibly private, sacred for a lot of people or even shameful to some. Not to say I’m defending any one view, but I think these would go a long way in explaining why we don’t mind seeing fictional violence but are much less inclined to publicly view nudity – which has a much more vivid and “real” feel to it that chainsaw fights.
I’m not nearly old enough to be having an 11 year old son but that’s an interesting point actually. In regards to Nyaruko, you’ve raised another point which I neglected to mention, which as you pointed out, is using ecchi as a tropism in itself. Nyaruko as a show is very self aware, it isn’t ecchi in the sense that it titillates, rather it plays on those themes that make half of us roll our eyes and the other half squee in excitement. I didn’t actually consider Nyaruko as ecchi because is doesn’t actually stir up many “adult” themes, as you said, the comedy is so situational that any otherwise heavy or mature dialogue is trivialized. Though you bring up a valid point about Sankarea, that’s ecchi where it just doesn’t need to be and I’d agree with you that it serves no purpose as opposed to a parody like Nyaruko.
Thanks for the interesting comment!
Okay scream hate and cut a person into three pieces with a chainsaw but don’t ever let us catch them looking at visuals showing loving couples in the act of making a family.
That really is a good point. I don’t also understand why sex in shows is being more avoided than violent ones, when sex is actually literally all about making love.
I’m also fine with the ecchiness the same way like you do. For instance, the latest episode of Natsuiro Kiseki has the most fan servicey theme; it has bath houses and bouncing breast. But for me that’s fine because the fan service was used to depict actual human experience which is the core value of a slice-of-life (we do really undressed ourselves when bathing and some flat chested girls are really intimidated by someone who has breasts). These super mundane activities are also something that I really appreciate in anime because we don’t normally see these in live shows.
I’m not really following Sankarea but I happen to have an idea because I saw my brother watching yesterday and peeked a bit. I, too, don’t have a kid yet but if I happen to have one, I think I wouldn’t want my child to see Rea struggle between eating Ranko’s tits or simply licking them. Not because of it’s sexual, but the intent of the action is questionable and pointless. This is one of the examples or act that I think will forever perceive negatively.
Btw, like Aelysium, thanks for sharing an interesting discussion. Your examples and experiences help me see different angles of things.
Yeah, I don’t think ecchi is ruining anime. The problem here (or I guess two problems) would be (1) how shows use ecchi and (2) how people see an ecchi show as.
There are loads of shows that are out right ecchi (like Queen’s Blade) and was created for the sole purpose of being so. It draws viewers in, so it’s not like the production staff are doing their job wrong, rather their just capitalizing on the demand. Then there are shows that have ecchi, but functions only as an add-on to to the series. Shows like Penguindrum and Nisemonogatari have their fair share of suggestive scenes, but both of them also have something else going for them (Penguindrum had it’s crazy plot, and Nisemono had engaging dialogue). Finally, there’re shows that display nudity and such in a mature(?) or at the least a tactful manner, but is not tagged by the general audience as ecchi (Redline and the 4th Kara no Kyoukai do so). So yeah, ecchi covers a lot of shows, good and bad altogether, so we can’t really say that ecchi = bad, just from the tag.
Moving on to the second problem, for some viewers, or at least those that I’ve encountered, ecchi shows = hentai, and thus will not contain anything else. I can’t really blame them, but as Aelysium said, that’s really not always the case. I guess we can put in a way like “your mileage may vary”, since there really are those who are put-off by ecchi (even me at times) and there are also those who are very open minded about these things and can look beyond the risque and the suggestiveness.
No, even as someone who doesn’t like ecchi a whole lot, we can’t just paint it with the same brush. I guess the same thing I said to Yerocha below is relevant here, even for shows like Nisemono, was the fan service actually a key part of the show? Did the main really need to take a bath with a loli vampire? None of that dialogue needed to take place in that scene and it did feel intrusive if not a bit random. I can understand catering ecchi towards a market who want ecchi but if your anime has a main focus, I’m not sure that throwing ecchi aspects in is a good idea. But again, I’m quite ambivalent about the whole thing.
Thanks for commenting.
I’d say that I used to think that ecchi = hentai that’s why I used to skip an anime just from the tag itsel. But overtime, I realised that anime is so diverse that different themes and mixed up of genres exists. From there, my perception of ecchi started to change.
I’ve always been of the opinion that there is both good and bad fanservice, and I’ve seen enough of both to be able to recognize the difference. Good fanservice is the kind that feels like a natural element of the world it exists in, like Holo not wearing clothes most of the time. It can be meaningful, symbolic, or otherwise add to your understanding of a scene. Even if it doesn’t have that deep meaning, I can still consider ecchi material to be an okay thing so long as it doesn’t feel obtrusive.
I think the point about being obtrusive is another important aspect. For a lot of people, ecchi aspects are intrusive because they either serve no purpose or are usually just a means of cheap thrill/fill screen time. If it isn’t intrusive, it can still be bearable but again, even when it isn’t intruding, per se, why is it there if it has no purpose? Holo being nude could arguably have a purpose. However, people argue something like Nisemono didn’t need Karen to be naked half the time even though it didn’t actually intrude on the dialogue. I think there is a fine line between intrusive and unnecessary.
I believe that not everything should have meaning. Sometimes the thing we called “fanservice” is just there to flesh out the mundaneness of life. For instance, I don’t see bath scenes unnecessary because taking a bath is what normal people do. But what I find intrusive is the ridiculousness and over focused visualisations e.g. ludicrous portrayal of hyper-sexuality. (I have mixed feelings with Nisemono because the excessive ecchi was illustrated artistically.)
I’m also the type which thinks fanservices can be good. A fanservice can be smoothly blended itself within the context, making it appears meaningful. Or perhaps it can be artistic or stylish. I had certainly watched my fair shares of bad fanservices but I did watched a few good ones worth mentioning.
Same here, but I doubt non-regular anime viewers think the same way. I’ll be careful presenting an ecchi show to a friend who has yet to watch an anime. ^^
Pingback: Anti-Social Geniuses Reference Resource Mondays « Organization Anti-Social Geniuses
One of the things I’d like to point out is that ecchi isn’t only found in anime, and I’m surprised you didn’t touch on this topic. Some people consider anime to be synonymous with giant boobs and panty shots, but if you look at say, western shows in a highschool setting, you can also find panty shots (mostly with cheerleaders) and some cleavage. Ecchi seems to be a bad thing in anime, but goes totally unnoticed in other mediums.
Its true that these things do exist in other mediums, but the primary reason for not mentioning them was simply because in this instance I was just addressing the issue of whether ecchi aspects in anime add anything or whether they are a general detriment to most shows which aren’t 1 dimensional ecchi – as is the polarized debate currently.
I don’t think that it goes totally unnoticed in other mediums though, I think that rather its just because cheerleaders can just be seen as part of it. If HOTD was made into a live action, you can bet there would be complaints. Ecchi in anime is also accentuated, with huge breasts or ridiculous bath scenes which just don’t exist in western “real life” shows. Again, if they did, I think there would be a lot of debate about it.
Western TV shys away from explicit portrayal, whilst anime seems to embrace it. It’s a strange dichotomy but I think that’s a key difference between the mediums.
Good point. But I noticed that even in western shows, panty shots and cleavage are considered promiscuous because slutty girls always play the role of wearing daring outfits. For some reason though, anime is more capable to flesh out the “dirtyness” of the character than the western live shows.
What’s missing from this discussion is an examination of gaze and an understanding of when ecchi elements dehumanize their subjects.
Panty shots, for example, have a number of problems in and of themselves. First, their presence implies that the audience finds unintended shots of women’s unders arousing. This says two things about the audience: 1. that they have a simple eroticism that finds any taboo thing exciting (probably not true for most anime fans who’ve been inured to their presence) and 2. that we find candid panty shots interesting. As to the second point, I am reminded of Yi’s (by FoxyLadyAyame) about ‘choosing your weapon’. One would argue a healthier consistent sexuality would be interest in underwear SHOWN to us (this idea furthers both a consent culture AND allows for more interesting underwear as the post describes). In short, this kind of fan service implies a certain type of viewer and cares very little for its subject.
But probably the more troubling, subtle, and complicated idea is that panty shots become separated from the woman. These kind of shots start with tits or panties and then pan out, demonstrating that the emphasis is on the woman’s assets not her as a whole person. When you compare these works to Greek statues that are celebrations of a whole form it’s easier to see why the earlier works are considered higher forms of art. I think this analysis also applies to Holo, who generally is shown naked as a full body (OR the focus is on her tail, which has plot significance), here, her nudity is part of a character and therefore probably a bit more appropriate.
In short, the quality of ecchi should be a function of its objectification–the degree to which it reduces a women to a sex object and destroys her as a person. Or, whether it appears pasted in to serve an assumed audience who WANTS to see women only as objects (I point to Rosario to Vampire S2’s inability to frame a shot WITHOUT panties as an example).
At least, that’s how I read it. :D
Thanks for the thoughtful comment.
In short, the quality of ecchi should be a function of its objectification–the degree to which it reduces a women to a sex object and destroys her as a person. Or, whether it appears pasted in to serve an assumed audience who WANTS to see women only as objects (I point to Rosario to Vampire S2′s inability to frame a shot WITHOUT panties as an example).
I really like your explanation. These are the things that I was trying to avoid while writing my part since I’m defending ecchi. I guess just to add, another way to look at women being as “sex objects” is that it demonstrates sexual prowess. Arousal is said to be a temptation and a form of men’s weakness. Hence in terms of gender/sexuality clashes, women tend to overpower men. For instance in anime, we could see that in some scenarios, the male lead is weakened by this ecchi-ness of the female character e.g. Kanbaru and Araragi’s relationship in Nisemonogatari.
Also, I think, we tend to label things based on the meaning of the perceived object–which is highly subjective and influenced based. A panty shot can be as celebrated and as sophisticated like any classic art as long as the intent to do so is well-received by the audience.
One thing I’d be careful with Snippet is the idea that female characters “rule” male characters. A lot of these scenarios like in Nisemono and Bakemono is meant as a devise to create a pander effect. The males don’t take advance on the promiscuous girl, therefore she is still considered pure but also appealing due to her personality by the fan base. Fans thus can have all the imaginary relationships required without feeling the niggling that the female has a partner. Harems work in a similar fashion in that the male sometimes doesn’t pick any of them. It’s not so much a power for females, as a power for the fans. Whilst this is by no means what happens every time, for the most part, that’s how a lot of these personality/plot devices work. If people kept pairing up in ecchi shows, it becomes more about relationships and less about stimulation – which is what most viewers are looking for. Another feature of ecchi I guess – imagination.
That’s how I see it anyways :p
Dehumanization is something that was rife on my mind when considering this post but with Snippet’s input and a plethora of ideas I had to already omit (due to not wanting to write an essay) I thought it best to leave. I will instead do a full post on the topic. Don’t worry, it wasn’t forgotten!
I definitely agree about the subject becoming object point you raised. Another idea I have in regards to this is the use of enhancement of female characters. It seems that despite all the discussion on forums about who would make a better wife of partner, it all comes down to physicality. Whether it’s a downscaling to a loli figure or an upscaling to a extremely endowed characters, traits of personality or those features which one looks for in a typical wife/girlfriend/partner are absent. Talk of “gentle” characters or “loving” people is often linked with otherwise inexpressable sequences in an anime as opposed to realistic representations of people who the fandom would actually find appealing in real life. In the same way stereotypes like Tsundere have been glorified as appealing for their domineering attitude, when no one would put up with it in real life, we see that personalities are not only manufactured but traded and ‘clipped on’ – what works for one character could easily be just as successful on 1000 others. It seems like not just physicality has been mass produced but also personalities.
I agree entirely with your comment on objectification in a sexual sense but I wouldn’t just limit it there, anime seems to have gone all the way. Being female (panty shot or not, seems to be mean becoming more and more tradable and forgettable. When we speak about personalities, we aren’t really thinking about personality but transfixing an ideal to a character – one that is neither real nor appealing in real life. In this sense, these characters are less than human, than they ever have been.
I’ll stop here. Thanks for the comment. I had a feeling you’d have a lot to say on a topic like this, it was well thought out as expected.
If we are going to analyze fanservice on the level of desire (and not just male desire as articulated through the gaze) then we’re going to have to accept that ther are different discursive developments in Anime and that we need to investigate in more detail rather than imposing some moralizing rubric upon it.
Is not the whole entire history of sexualized representations (of either gender) in Anime already inscribed into the animation rather than limiting them to the moments in which it becomes most explicit?
Is it an object worthy of critique if we define it as participating in some sort of blameless sexual preference?
Can the subjects of Anime even be said to be human? Or a representation of a human? Or a representation of a moe archetype?
Is Ecchi limited to the Male Gaze? What can we say about BL and the M-M Doujinshi market?
I’m not really defending fanservice at all, but this question does interest me.
I definitely take your point, there is a huge discursive element when it comes to talking about a topic like ecchi in anime however, for the purpose of the post, I sought to narrowly focus on the value of ecchi, i.e. is it demonstrative or simply aesthetic. To answer your questions though:
No, representation in anime goes beyond animation. It is implicit in explicit portrayals for the fact that rather as a simple fact of the matter, it is presented as something we need to focus on. The camera panning to a panty shot, is not inscribed in animation, but in titillation.
I would scarcely say it’s blameless. As much as we like to detach anime from the real world, there is a seemless parallel between the two.
Oh yes, they can definitely said to be human. For a fair large part of otaku culture, animating these 2-D entities into 3-D reality is of primary consideration. In fact, for a lot of otaku, the 3-d world needs to conform to the 2-D world. Representation has morphised into reality – anime doesn’t seek to copy humans anymore, it goes beyond being human – and it seems to appeal to a lot of people.
Whilst ecchi isn’t simply limited to the male gaze, 90% of it in popular media is geared towards a male audience. Perhaps a double standard, but a fujoshi is not seen as perverted when compared to a hardcore dakimaru otaku. It’s unfair I know, but it’s just how it is at the moment.
Thanks for the very interesting notes!
I find the idea of “pander effect” that Aelysium mentioned and “male gaze” really similar. Say for instance in Nisemonogatari, we could see dichotomy in fanservice. There’s no doubt that the sexy aesthetics and fanservice is meant to titillate “Araragi” (outer context) but at the same time these is also laughing at “him” for fulfilling the its purpose and being in control (inner context). Then we can ask ourselves, who does the fanservice and who receives it?
Pingback: On Anime Contrivances: The Lolita and Deviance | Anime Elysium
Another thought: Ecchi isn’t simply a disposition towards creating Anime, or a disposition towards Anime, but can be said to be an outlook in general. One can be ‘Ecchi’ Thus Ecchi is superset of fanservice categories. If this is true, then how exactly are we parsing sexual deviance here and upon which normative grounds are we judging them?
I am trying to argue that there is a certain disciplinarity to being titillated by certain acts and not others. For example, I have known many an Anon who have learned to ‘enjoy’ a certain fetishized subculture, or a specific form of fanservice, as if it were either a form of sexual exploration, OR in the case of something such as the works of Suehiro Maruo, a ‘refined transgressive taste’. In either case the representation is exciting or titillating but is it purely sexual in nature or is it the transgression that is actually titillating? Isn’t there something to be said about the fact that it is relegated to the realm of fantasy (the realm of desire) instead of the realm of actuality? Wouldn’t we be conflating the disposition with the act if we were to moralize upon it? Doesn’t Ecchi fly in the face of prudence or gender normativity? I remember 2-D Teleidoscope having some fascinating posts on this topic.
Of course my actual disposition is more akin to yours as I am against the objectification of women as sexual objects, but I think the actual situation is more complicated then viewing it as a question of ‘demonstrative’ or ‘aesthetic’ value.
I wouldn’t even say its a case of judging them on normative grounds as much as looking at them on the grounds that for the most part, they are pervadingly incoherent. This is a rather general cast on my part I admit, however, I can’t help but feel that whilst its easy to play both sides of the coin here, speaking from a honest point of view, the superset of ecchi is neither desirable to neither party for or against nor for males or females. Just like certain characteristics in anime are appealing only in anime, ecchi seems to have superseded gender roles for sexual roles. Whilst some might like it, I don’t think its a fair (nor a required one) image regardless of how you look at it. This post simply tried to look at what value ecchi has strictly within an anime context, and as I argued, I don’t think it has too great a value, if not a detrimental effect.
Oh yes I am familiar with what you’re talking about and with the posts by 2DT on the topic but I would say that that debate is entering into a whole new area which this post doesn’t even touch on. I would also be careful mixing ecchi with outright explicit sexual content, ecchi is a relatively “weak” phenomena, fantasies and such are there but they hardly contribute to the discussion you bring up – that involves a lot heavier content. I don’t want to get too into detail here but I think we’re on the same wavelength in regards to that debate.
To be honest, the topic of ecchi and ecchi culture, I’d agree is a lot more complicated than the strict dichotomy I concocted earlier. However, I don’t think that the bounds of this post go far outside of those two values. Hence why I am hesitant to argue outside of them, lest we go off completely on a tangent. The only value we can give ecchi is a normative value in terms of its use in anime – when speaking pragmatically, the only valued value is that that is seen as valuable. As roundabout and obvious as that seems, it explains why a bias viewpoint is pretty much the only valuable viewpoint.
Thanks for these comments though. Really well written. And great blog by the way, I’ll be reading.
I believe that whatever we create in our fantasy is a by-product of something that we fail to achieve in reality. Now with ecchi, as anime, it’s fantasy-based. A lot of times I’ve seen how the ecchi genre deviated away from the gender norms.
That being said, keep in mind that the one watching this 2D animation is not in the world of 2D. No matter where the 2D world brings us by the end of the show we will still find ourselves as the ones looking on the monitor screen and are grounded on the 3D world. We’re still governed by the societal order, gender norms, and how we’re “supposed” to act.
…if it were either a form of sexual exploration, OR in the case of something such as the works of Suehiro Maruo, a ‘refined transgressive taste’.
I believe that ecchi is always going to be a sexual exploration. There’s no such thing as “non-sexual” in a context that plays around sexualities and genders–maybe we can say “less / more sexual”. Hence, the idea of ‘refined transgressive taste’ is just one of the layers of sexualities or a subset of sexual exploration.
Btw, I noticed that it’s your first time to leave something here. Thank you for your engaging comments. I enjoyed replying back.
Pingback: Gender, Nudity, and the Power of Characterization – aloe, dream
First off, I just discovered your blog (both your blogs, actually) and wanted to say I’ve enjoyed reading through them. I thought this article in particular was quite interesting and well done.
I’ve never been one to disapprove of nudity on principle; it shouldn’t have to be pointed out that sex and the human body are wonderful, beautiful things. Both can be used quite artfully and further thematic and poetic meaning. That, and no one has ever complained when shown a figure or situation they find sexually appealing. Sexuality is a key, primal piece of every person, and needs no real explanation beyond that.
When ecchi starts to bother me is when it’s used crassly and in manipulative fashion. I’ve never been a fan of fan-service shows, because as the name implies they don’t really serve any purpose other than hooking viewers by providing them with cheap, meaningless titillation and pandering to the lowest instincts of the target viewers, usually at the expense of everything else that actually makes up a story. If that’s what someone wants to watch then I won’t try to stop them (though I do have some issue with things the hyper-sexualization of underaged girls that seems to be a defining feature of a lot of fan-service shows), but for me the pandering use of sex and nudity just for pandering’s sake isn’t something I care to indulge in. It just leaves me cold.
When the cheap use nudity really starts to bother me is when it’s put into shows where the pandering aspects clash with the rest of the show, when it is obviously something tacked on to indulge the lowest common denominator in spite of the rest of the content. The case where this sticks out most to me was when I recently watched “Gunbuster” for the first time, and pretty much every episode had some blatant and ill-fitting moment of fan service thrown on top of what was otherwise supposed to be a much more solemn and literate affair than your average panty-shot show. In a scene where the main character has a quite and serious moment reflecting on all the things she’s lost in her life off fighting a war in space, it’s hard not to see the cold calculus involved when her boobs randomly and nonsensically flop out from under her shirt right in the middle of it: “Our heroine is a young woman with a personality on a journey of emotional consequence and weight; this clearly won’t appeal to our audience unless she shows them her tits.”
Those are the cases where it really starts to bug me. When ecchi is artlessly and crassly used in spite of the rest of the material, and bogs it down due to it’s presence. I will to the day I die defend the sexiness and fan-service in “Utena” and “Penguindrum,” or the nudity in “Ghost in the Shell.” Those elements are more than just pandering, they’re key elements to the works. And we’ve all had images/people/characters, maybe live-action and maybe anime/animated, who have appealed to us on that primal level and struck those chords that intrigued and attracted us, so we sought them out. And if someone wants to watch a show designed for the sole purpose of them getting to sneak a peek up animated character’s skirts, then I can’t do anything to stop them.
Hello Adam, thanks for your passionate comment. I really do understand where you are coming from because I’m also the same. Ecchi is highly subjective and a really broad perception.
But in nutshell, it’s a big turn off for me when I see the human body is being exploited, one specific example is Queen’s Blade. I only managed to watch that show because some friends invited me and I’d like to exercise my sarcasm. Indeed, that show is totally meant to titillate and it’s very blunt about it, which is fine for me. However, what I don’t appreciate in that show is it’s delivery, context, and the way it mocks the hyper-sexualised female bodies. That kind of humour is just not really my thing. Instead of being titillated, I’m disgusted by what the show is doing.
Though one might consider them ecchi, I perceive shows like Utena and Penguindrum artful because of its storyline and I had seen that the characters are designed with respect. As you said, the nudity is more that just to pander, rather, it poignantly adds texture and meaning in the act.
I haven’t seen “Queen’s Blade,” so I can’t comment. But if it’s as you describe then I think you and I would be very much in agreement about it.
Aww, thank you for believing in me. I know I said that I didn’t like the context of Queen’s Blade, but regardless, I managed to write something about the show. I hope you don’t mind if I’m promoting our post: http://blog.draggle.org/category/episodes/currently-airing/queens-blade-rebellion/
“why is it that nude paintings and erotic literature is considered okay, whilst ecchi is considered derogatory or primal? I guess it’s to do with the intended meaning.”
It’s also about time frame, while not all art has been controversial, there are many examples were paintings or books were considered lewd first and only the latter generations appreciated them as art.
Definitely agree. Art is a medium that is constantly dependent of its time. ^^
Great article, as it seems to be well thought out. Of course, not that a well thought out idea necessarily translates into a correct idea. After all, the lenses people wear affect how they perceive reality. Does that change reality?
I find it humorous that while you acknowledge 95% of Ecchi is trash (I tend to agree), you still insist the 5% is worth more than not going through the trash at all. Normally I’d rant about the silliness of this, but I’ll spare you and instead suggest the “5%” isn’t really Ecchi to begin with.
When you speak of things that are “dirty”, you are talking in terms of morality. But because of your staunch relativist approach, there is no limit where any line can be drawn, for it (as the last comment suggests) is purely based on the whim of the viewer’s definition of “art”, and from there I suppose one’s culture. Not only does this make the whole thing one long drag, but there is then never a true answer and “art” ultimately has no meaning outside the viewer’s own imagination.
However, I don’t hold to relativism. And when I see Fanservice and Ecchi, I do see a distinct difference. Perhaps the best answer you’ll ever hear is this:
Ecchi is all about causing the viewer to think “dirty”, to satisfy the viewer and in many cases to make the characters involved to think likewise. While Fanservice merely includes such similar or disimilar material for the purpose of pleasing the longtime fans, or to attract a certain specific demograph.
Two examples in America are in the gaming and movie industry: 1) It is a known fact that the Zelda games always include something nostalgic from the previous classics, like the Link Shield and similar places he’s gone before. Studies have shown that if the makers of Zelda do this, it keeps the original fan base comfortable and interested, which in turn helps solidify their sales.
2) Recently the Hobbit came out, and if you noticed, several of the characters in the original Trilogy were in the movie at some point. Same reasoning with wonderful results in ticket sales.
But notice how in both examples, the added material never took away from the main theme of the show/game. If you can take away the material without changing the story much, then it’s Fanservice.
But if you tried that in Ecchi shows, all you would be left is a hollow shell.
Not that I’m saying that the feminine or masculine physique is a bad thing to show off. God made us in His image, and he gave us eyes to appreciate it. Of course, we find all kinds of ways to pervert this, but ultimately it is in itself a good thing.
There are plenty of ways to show off the attractiveness of an individual without ever resorting to lust. Blood + is a show I can recall fondly for this.
Really, one might go far as say Ecchi is a totally useless medium that doesn’t move a show past “wow, she’s hot”.
Wow, thank you for a very well thought out response. I hope you don’t mind my late reply, it’s because I’m just busy with some stuff lately. I agreed in most of the things that you said including correlating “dirty” to morality but… :)
But if you tried that in Ecchi shows, all you would be left is a hollow shell.
This is something that I have to disagree. For me, we are all living in a socially constructed world and only happened to assign meanings to everything. An ecchi show maybe hollow for somebody but not for another person, or a so-called nostalgic film can either turned out offending or lovely. Logically speaking, it’s how we’re going to define “x” and make sense of it. However, regardless, underneath the layers of meaning that we assigned to “x”, we cannot deny the fact that it’s just a plain “x”.
My point is “ecchi”, “nostalgia”, and “art” are nothing but thoughts that we assigned meanings to, unfortunately we don’t see things equally—which creates disagreements. Hence, it’s unfair to say that ecchi is nothing but trash. As you have already implied, ecchi can divert and open doors to a lot of things such as creativity.
“There are plenty of ways to show off the attractiveness of an individual without ever resorting to lust.
Rationally speaking, we can’t fully get rid of lust in our bodies. It’s a human instinct and integral to our adaptive mechanism. It just happened that the idea of lust has negative connotations due to how it got tied to religious and moral ideologies (just like the #’s 13 and 666)—once again, on how we constructed the world and built the dominant ideas. This topic is highly debatable and can go on forever… but my take on this is, if we can turn lust into a positive energy, then why not use it? :)
Really, one might go far as say Ecchi is a totally useless medium that doesn’t move a show past “wow, she’s hot”.
If an ecchi anime brings enjoyment and if by saying “wow, she’s hot” can take away a tired mind from an overly saturated atmosphere, then just by the virtue that ecchi brings happiness and betters a well-being, one might say that ecchi is a totally useful medium.
Once again, thanks for this thoughtful discussion. I really enjoyed writing my response. :)
Thanks !